Six Myths About Christianity – Part 4
Posted By Brett on December 31, 2009
The Intermediate State
Having dispensed with the given texts in support of a mortal soul, the case still needs to be presented for an immortal soul. There is a vast array of texts that could be brought to bear on this subject to prove the immortality of the soul. However, since the main point of disagreement seems to be the intermediate state, I will focus my response there.
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Movement Passages
If the soul ceased to exist at death one would not expect to find descriptions of its movement. Yet many passages describe the soul as returning, departing, entering or leaving. Consider:
Gen 35:18 And as her soul was departing (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.
The soul was not ceasing to exist, but was departing. The term is yatsa and the majority of the time it conveys a relocation. Sometimes it is the source more than the physical movement that is emphasized (such as the flow of a river). The most reasonable interpretation is that her soul (the immaterial part of her existence) relocated.
Eccl 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Luke 8:52 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once. And he directed that something should be given her to eat.
In normal usage, these terms describe that which continues to exist. When I depart a building or my wife returns from the store or my children depart the house or my dog enters it again, all of these verbs suggest that the person or animal continue to exist. So it is with the soul. It continues to exist as it moves from one place to another as the traditional understanding of the soul asserts.
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Entrust Passages
If the soul ceased to exist at death, then one would not expect to find passages where it is entrusted to God. If it ceased to exist, then there is nothing to entrust. If I commit something to your care, that something has to exist in order for my statement to make any sense. Consider:
Psalm 31:5 Into your hand I commit my spirit; you have redeemed me, O Lord, faithful God.
Luke 23:46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.
Acts 7:59-60 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
When I entrust my car to someone, my car does not cease to exist. If I commit my finances to someone, my money does not cease to exist. When I entrust the mailman with an urgent letter the assumption is that my letter continues to exist as he takes it to the intended destination. How can God receive what does not exist?
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Disconnected Passages
If the soul ceases to exist at death then it would be a most explicitly contradictory thing to find passages that describe souls existing apart from the body. Yet there are such passages. Consider:
1 Sam 28:11-15 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” 13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” 14 He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”
Necromancy was forbidden in scripture. The assumption seems to be that in some instances one can communicate with the dead. But if the dead cease to exist then there is no one to communicate with. No room is left for speculation as Saul summons Samuel through the sorcerer. Although Samuel died and his body was in the ground, yet he lived.
Isa 14:9 Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades [spirits of the dead] to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.
Isa 26:14 They are dead, they will not live; they are shades [spirits of the dead], they will not arise; to that end you have visited them with destruction and wiped out all remembrance of them.
Is 26:19 Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead [departed spirits].
Matt 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.
Matt. 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
The interesting thing about this passage is that Abraham and Issac and Jacob had not yet received their resurrection bodies (neither will they until the second coming.) Though they were physically dead, yet Jesus says they are alive.
Philippians 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
Why would non-existence be better? Indeed Paul says it is far better. The reason is:
2 Cor 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
To be absent from the body is (not to cease to exits but) to be present with the Lord. One cannot be present if he does not exist. To be in the presence of the Lord is far better!
Hebrews 12:22-23 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Rev 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
These are a lot of passages to try to rework. On the whole it makes more sense to say that the soul continues to exist after death.
God said that the penalty for man’s sin was death, and Satan directly contradicted Him by telling Eve, “Ye shall not surely die” (Genesis 3:4). The same lie, that when you die you’re not really dead, has been propounded for centuries. The majority of non-Christians believe there is some form of life after death, whether it be reincarnation, survival as a “ghost,” or becoming an “angel.”
Death was not part of God’s original plan, but came as the result of man’s sin. Most Christians agree with that statement, but then say that man has an immortal soul that survives death. When a loved one dies, they say “he’s with the Lord now” or “he’s gone on to a better place” or “he’s in heaven.” This is inconsistent with the Biblical view of death, for if it were the point of passage into the presence of God in heaven, it would be a welcome friend. Yet death is described as an enemy (I Corinthians 15:26). Death is the end of life, and only through resurrection will life be restored in the future.
If the dead are already with Jesus in heaven, what would be the point of a resurrection in the future? And if those who died are already consigned to either heaven or hell, what is the purpose or meaning of the future resurrection to judgment?
Revelation 20:4, which refers to “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus.” This does not refer to disembodied souls, as many understand this passage. It simply refers to those persons who had been beheaded, and it is describing them being raised, to live and reign with Christ. Verse 6 refers to this as a resurrection, implying that they were dead, not previously existing in a disembodied state.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [ruach] shall return unto God who gave it.”
Does this verse say that man goes to heaven when he dies? Proper understanding of this verse depends on understanding the definition of spirit. It is not referring to man’s consciousness, nor is it speaking of his soul (in the sense of his life). It is the “breath of life,” the life force that makes him alive. Remember that God breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul.(Gen 2:7) That life force was added to a body and it became a living creature. Death can be seen as the reverse of this process. When a soul dies, the breath is gone (“he took his last breath”). The body returns to the earth, and the life force returns to God who gave it. But this life force is not man’s consciousness. If it were, then all living creatures would be said to go to God at death, whether saved or unsaved. This would even contradict the other fundamental doctrines of those who profess to believe in conscious life for believers in heaven after death.
God said that the penalty for man’s sin was death, and Satan directly contradicted Him by telling Eve, “Ye shall not surely die” (Genesis 3:4). The same lie, that when you die you’re not really dead, has been propounded for centuries.
That’s bit simplistic since scripture speaks about death in different ways. In the instance you mentioned, either Satan was right and God was proved to be a liar, or you have misread that text. “
You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” But Adam and Eve did not die the day they ate of it (not physically). They did not die the day after, nor 365 days after. In fact Adam lived an amazingly long life. Since there are many ways that one can speak of death (and indeed scripture itself does so) then it is too simplistic to use only one sense of it.
The majority of non-Christians believe there is some form of life after death, whether it be reincarnation, survival as a “ghost,” or becoming an “angel.”
Immaterial, the majority of atheists don’t believe in life after death. That is neither here nor there. I don’t do my theology by counting heads.
Death was not part of God’s original plan, but came as the result of man’s sin. Most Christians agree with that statement, but then say that man has an immortal soul that survives death. When a loved one dies, they say “he’s with the Lord now” or “he’s gone on to a better place” or “he’s in heaven.” This is inconsistent with the Biblical view of death, for if it were the point of passage into the presence of God in heaven, it would be a welcome friend.
You mean like the way Paul views it? “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. 24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.”
Yet death is described as an enemy (I Corinthians 15:26). Death is the end of life, and only through resurrection will life be restored in the future.
Your interpretation acts as though salvation weren’t in the picture. If death was the end of the story it would be bad. But this is the confidence we have in God, “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. ” Thus even death is turned to good. It is still an enemy mind you. It still causes heartache and sorrow and broken lives. But though it is still an enemy, God has redeemed his people such that death does not have the final say.
If the dead are already with Jesus in heaven, what would be the point of a resurrection in the future?
We are created as both physical and spiritual creatures. We are not complete without our bodies. That’s the point of the resurrection, it brings our salvation into its final form.
And if those who died are already consigned to either heaven or hell, what is the purpose or meaning of the future resurrection to judgment?
In eschatology theologians speak of the “already and the not yet.” When we trust in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins we are described as having passed from death to life. But if that’s true then why the future resurrection (here is another instance of death and life used in different ways). When we trust in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins we are justified before the sight of God. If we already have that judgment, then why the final judgment? Our salvation takes place in phases, and it is not until the resurrection and the final judgment that all things come to their consummate form. We have already passed from death to life, but the second resurrection is not yet. Already we are justified, but not yet has the final judgment come, already God has begun his kingdom, but not yet is it in its final state. Already we are seated in the heavenly places, but not yet is that realized. This is a major theme in scripture into which your question easily fits.
Revelation 20:4, which refers to “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus.” This does not refer to disembodied souls, as many understand this passage. It simply refers to those persons who had been beheaded, and it is describing them being raised, to live and reign with Christ. Verse 6 refers to this as a resurrection, implying that they were dead, not previously existing in a disembodied state.
That is a popular dispensational understanding, but I don’t think it is ultimately sustainable. The text specifically refers to “souls.” While it is true that “soul” is sometimes used as a synecdoche for the whole person, the burden of proof rests on you to make that case. Moreover, there are two resurrections and two deaths in this passage. The first resurrection (in which these maryters have taken part ) is our regeneration (the passing from death to life that I mentioned above) and its subsequent results (the fact that death has no power over God’s people so that when they die physically they come into the presence of Christ and reign with him.)
Ecclesiastes 12:7 “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [ruach] shall return unto God who gave it.”
Does this verse say that man goes to heaven when he dies?
There is some immaterial part of man that goes to God upon death. That is in perfect agreement with the traditional view.
Proper understanding of this verse depends on understanding the definition of spirit. It is not referring to man’s consciousness, nor is it speaking of his soul (in the sense of his life). It is the “breath of life,” the life force that makes him alive. Remember that God breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul.(Gen 2:7)
I’ve already dealt with that passage.
That life force was added to a body and it became a living creature. Death can be seen as the reverse of this process. When a soul dies, the breath is gone (“he took his last breath”). The body returns to the earth, and the life force returns to God who gave it. But this life force is not man’s consciousness.
I’ve already dealt with this position.
If it were, then all living creatures would be said to go to God at death, whether saved or unsaved. This would even contradict the other fundamental doctrines of those who profess to believe in conscious life for believers in heaven after death.
It actually poses no problem. All souls do go to God. What he does with them depends on whether these people were saved or not. If they are saved, God bestows blessings, if not then God administers punishment. Neither is completely absent from God in the sense you need to for your objection to stick. Thank you again for your interaction. May we each be better for it.